Full transcript: Justin Williams — Construction ID: fixing the 13% rework tax in building

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This is an automated transcript of the episode, lightly edited for readability. Please excuse any errors.

Justin Williams: Thanks for having me, Kylie. This is a real pleasure and, and hopefully it's not too boring for everyone.

Kylie Davis: So I'm really looking forward to this conversation about transforming construction, because I think it is an industry that really needs a lot of change to happen in it to make, to improve it. But look, Justin, first question's always the hardest, and it is our elevator pitch. So tell me what the Construction ID elevator pitch is.

Justin Williams: Um, Construction ID by WiseWorking is a SaaS software solution, uh, for the built environment. We exist to build the world and make it a better place. A building consists of multiple phases that may span over 50 years. Software currently services a single phase of the building. For example, tendering or construction. Construction ID services all the phases of the entire lifespan of the building with detailed project and document management forms and reporting.

Kylie Davis: Okay. So you're a SaaS platform. You're covering the whole phase of a, of a building's life cycle. Is that correct?

Justin Williams: Correct.

Kylie Davis: Yeah?

Justin Williams: Correct.

Kylie Davis: And what's the actual problem that you're solving?

Justin Williams: So the actual problem we solve, uh, there's, there's quite a few of them, actually. Um-

Kylie Davis: No, that's good. We love lots of problems. Don't worry about that.

Justin Williams: Um, so, so look, if anyone's ever experienced, um, trying to find that, uh, that golden, golden email or, uh, that bit of information that they need, at, at present they have to, to switch across different apps and different platforms or look through different ways through emails looking for the magic, um, piece of information. Construction ID means that it's a central platform for users, um, and that's the building's team-

Kylie Davis: Mm-hmm

Justin Williams: ... um, to view, communicate, and manage the entire building throughout its life. So, um, it eliminates information silos. So information from each stage is stored. What that means is information from each stage is stored on a separate software and database for each different role. Um, instead of that, it's all done centrally.

Kylie Davis: Mm-hmm.

Justin Williams: Um, it means that migration and rebuilding of the data, um, is avoided, um, because that often, um, leads to miscommunication, having it stored separately, miscommunication.

Kylie Davis: Yeah.

Justin Williams: Um, or even, even, um, data entry, um, errors and, and lost, lost information. Um, it creates visibility, um, so that, uh, so that anyone, um, particularly the property developer, can get an accurate real-time view of where the building's at, um, rather than the, um, I won't say, uh, uh, the glossed picture that, that they sometimes get about w- where the building's at, and then they get told too late that there's actually a delay or a cost overrun.

Kylie Davis: Yeah.

Justin Williams: Um, uh, it, it means that, uh, history is all in the one place so that-

Kylie Davis: Yep

Justin Williams: ... um, when, when a issue is fixed, and I'll go into an example of, um, what, what that could actually mean, um, later on, uh, uh, when the issue is fixed, the history is there to help aid that fix. Um-

Kylie Davis: Right

Justin Williams: It, it actually lowers the cost of development because it stops rework occurring. Um-

Kylie Davis: Yep

Justin Williams: ... it, it avoids additional software costs at each stage because, um, traditionally what would happen is every different stage of the building would, would require a bit of, uh, different, um, uh, piece of software, and that would be bought, um, by that, by that individual, but built into their tender price. So ultimately what it does is it lowers the actual cost of building. Um, it reduces rework, like I mentioned before. Um, we did- we've done some research with Deakin University in, um, in, in Victoria, and rework actually costs, um, as much as 13%, generally between 10 and 13%, um, of a building's costs over its lifespan can be contributed to rework. Uh, and rework could be, um, you know, um, re-attending, um, a issue, um, uh, fixing a, a defect that was, uh, was fixed incorrectly a few years ago or, um, or, uh, data entry, um, of something that was done previously. So doing, doing the data entry twice.

Kylie Davis: Okay.

Justin Williams: Um-

Kylie Davis: So, so, so what you've got is a platform that is like a centralized communication platform that's bringing together all of these different conversations that happen around a, around a building in, and different elements of software that, um, are, you know, disparate pieces of software that are used to, to manage bits and pieces and streamlining all of, all of that. Is that correct?

Justin Williams: Well, it's a communication platform, but also a, uh, a, it's a, it's a, what you call a document control and, um, and quality control platform. So-

Kylie Davis: Right

Justin Williams: ... so rather than just, just, um, uh, sharing communication and documents, it actually, um, uh, produces the forms, the quality forms that, um, you would need to, for example, uh, do a, uh, uh, that the builder has to complete to do an inspection test record to, um, prove that they've, they've installed the plastering correctly in a, in a room. Um, so it gives-

Kylie Davis: Ah

Justin Williams: ... it gives the team visibility that the right processes have always been followed-

Kylie Davis: Yep

Justin Williams: ... but also, um, the right documents, uh, are being looked at.

Kylie Davis: Oh, okay. 'Cause I can imagine... Oh, look, I can only imagine what the what the email communication trial looks like at the moment using-... email, Excel, and a filing cabinet or-

Justin Williams: Oh, absolutely

Kylie Davis: ... a whiteboard, right?

Justin Williams: Absolutely. It's, it's a mishmash.

Kylie Davis: These are the, this is what you're replacing, I can imagine. Um-

Justin Williams: Yep.

Kylie Davis: So, so how far back or how far, uh... Where does this, where does the use of, of Construction ID by Wise Working start, Justin? Like is it from the time they-

Justin Williams: Well, it actually starts-

Kylie Davis: They-

Justin Williams: Yeah. It actually starts at design and, and tendering. Um-

Kylie Davis: Right. Awesome. Yep

Justin Williams: ... so the idea is the more information you can get into this, uh, into this system, this, uh, central repository, the better. So, so, um, we encourage users to use this through design phase, then into, um, construction phase, then afterwards into operational phase. 'Cause the more information you get in there, the more benefits that, that all of the users, um, get out of the system.

Kylie Davis: Yeah. And does it then translate into just owning and operating the building, or do you hand off to a different... Or can you hand that data off to a different platform after that?

Justin Williams: Um, look, look, uh, ideally it translates into operations-

Kylie Davis: Yep

Justin Williams: ... um, of the building. They l- they retain it. But if they need, if, if they have a different, um, provider or, or, um, or the owner's corporation doesn't wanna use Construction ID, then yes, we can, um, we can export everything, all that information. They can have access to it.

Kylie Davis: Okay. So are you, are you, uh, do you specialize in particular types of buildings, or is it... 'Cause you just mentioned a strata then, uh, which is what I'm-... seizing on. Or is it any kind of, um, any kind of building?

Justin Williams: Look, it's any kind of building. Um, and, uh, the, the, with cons- our current clients, you know, uh, are right from, as you say, the top end tier one strata, um, companies right down to, um, uh, small residential, um, buildings because the, the idea of Construction ID is because it's scalable and, um, because you can sort of pick and choose what you wanna use, uh, it's modular, um, it's applicable to, to any, any type of um, any type of built, um, built environment project.

Kylie Davis: Okay. So the benefits of using it are that I'm gonna save a lot of, a hell of a lot of time, I guess, looking for lost records. It's keeping everything in one place, and, and it's creating almost a da- well, it's creating a data trail, right, of what's gone on in this building and-

Justin Williams: Correct

Kylie Davis: ... and all the information of-

Justin Williams: Yep. And-

Kylie Davis: ... is applicable to this building, and its desi- and its building decisions or construction decisions that have been-

Justin Williams: Yes

Kylie Davis: ... made across the, the time.

Justin Williams: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Kylie Davis: Yeah. That's, that is, that is so important. Um, because I was talking to the guys at PT Blink the other day, and i- in, and they were... We kind of ended up having a bit of a, a, a vast conversation around how invisible so much of the data is in construction because, not because it's not, doesn't exist, but because it's never been digitized, right? 'Cause it's, it's sitting in-

Justin Williams: Yes. It's never been digitized.

Kylie Davis: Yeah.

Justin Williams: And it, you're right. It is sitting in silos. And-

Kylie Davis: Yeah

Justin Williams: ... um, and it, I won't say it's old school-

Kylie Davis: People's heads.

Justin Williams: But, but, but when, when someone tells them, uh, another part, if it's sitting offline, when someone tells someone, um, their, their s- the story of where things are at, it's their story, um-

Kylie Davis: Yeah. Yep

Justin Williams: ... rather than the, the true story. And, and what Construction ID does with that visibility is avoids, avoids surprises.

Kylie Davis: Yeah.

Justin Williams: And it's not like someone, you know, um, uh, isn't there to, to- You know, clap you on the hand and, and penalize you. It's so that it's, it's seen early.

Kylie Davis: Yep.

Justin Williams: Um, and then, then you can approach it as a team. Um-

Kylie Davis: Yep

Justin Williams: ... so you can make the decisions before the problems actually occur.

Kylie Davis: Right. So how long have you guys been around for?

Justin Williams: Um, so, so look, uh, Wise Working actually started in 2011.

Kylie Davis: Right.

Justin Williams: Um, and so we've been around for a long time. Construction ID is the, um, uh, the evolution of, um, all the, all the systems and, and, uh, and intellectual property that we, we built, um, over all those years. Um, uh, you know, I, I, we, we started on building defects and moved into OH&S and then, then went to, uh, post construction and, you know, built lots and lots of different apps. Um, but everything was, um, everything was brought together with Construction ID. Because as you said, there's no- there's lots of lost data. Um-

Kylie Davis: Yes

Justin Williams: ... there's lots of data out... There's no doubt that the data's out there, but, um, nothing actually brings the, the data all together. And the idea with Construction ID, um, covering all those phases, um, and having, um, all of those different points of functionality does bring all that data together.

Kylie Davis: Cool. So how long has Construction ID been in market for?

Justin Williams: Um, so I, I actually started building Construction ID, um, uh, during the COVID, the lockdown period.

Kylie Davis: Oh, well so many of us did.

Justin Williams: A bit of, um-

Kylie Davis: It was a breathing space to code.

Justin Williams: Exactly. Exactly. Um-

Kylie Davis: You're not, you were not the first, yeah. I just have this vision of like reflecting back on COVID of all of these developers sitting in their rooms coding-... while they waited for the pandemic to end. It, uh, it's kind of really what happened. So yeah, so 2020 is when you-

Justin Williams: Yes

Kylie Davis: ... started, pulled it-

Justin Williams: Yep

Kylie Davis: ... started to pull it together.

Justin Williams: Yep.

Kylie Davis: Yep.

Justin Williams: Put it all together. Um, um, so and, and, um, since, since then, um, going to market, we've, uh, had, had some, some success with the tier ones. Um, and, um, and you know, it's been used, the product's been used nationally for all, all, um, all different phases of building. So that, that, that's a great thing. But you know, being a, being a bootstrap company, our, our, our challenge now is to, um, is, is to get the product out there.

Kylie Davis: Do you wanna do a bit of a humble brag and tell us who some of your clients are?

Justin Williams: Um, well...

Kylie Davis: You, you can.

Justin Williams: So, so look, I, I, I, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll start with the, uh, uh, the top end of town. So we're working with Cbus Property.

Kylie Davis: Right. Awesome.

Justin Williams: Um, and then, then, um, you know, just to, just to show, um, we've got another few other tier ones which, which I, uh, I, I, I, I, I'm, I'm, um, not, not too, uh, not too keen to do a humble brag about, about on. But, um, uh, at the, at the, at the different end of market we've got, um, uh, in the residential area we're working with, um, Burbank, Burbank Australia-

Kylie Davis: Mm-hmm

Justin Williams: ... in, in, down in Victoria-

Kylie Davis: Mm-hmm

Justin Williams: ... um, on, on residential projects.

Kylie Davis: Yep.

Justin Williams: Um, and, uh, and, and every, every different sector has its own unique challenges and quirks. Um, and, and Construction ID isn't a one-shoe-fits-all, um-

Kylie Davis: Yeah

Justin Williams: ... product, but it, it, it can be actually, um, tweaked, um, depending on, on, um, the needs of the customer and the market.

Kylie Davis: So, so your clients are doing everything from building high-rise commercial buildings all the way through to individ- or re- residential home developments or?

Justin Williams: Correct. Correct.

Kylie Davis: Yep. Wow. Okay. And everything in b- everything in between?

Justin Williams: Everything in between.

Kylie Davis: 'Cause, 'cause your platform doesn't care. It's the process that you're-

Justin Williams: Yes, correct

Kylie Davis: ... you're automating.

Justin Williams: Correct.

Kylie Davis: You don't care what the end, what the end-

Justin Williams: Yep

Kylie Davis: ... um, uh, box looks like. Um, that's the... Okay. So, so that's a really, that is a really impressive client list and, and for a, a prop tech that's only been around as a technology solution since 2020. Although appreciate that you guys... Were you consulting or did you before with Wise Working?

Justin Williams: Well, look, we, we, um, uh, we, we, we started the, the, um, the journey, um, wanting to do software consulting and contracting.

Kylie Davis: Yep.

Justin Williams: Um, but found ourselves pulled towards the software, um, because, um, when we started, when we started Wise Working, um, uh, there wasn't much out there. Um-

Kylie Davis: Mm-hmm

Justin Williams: ... so, so, um, we, you know, there was a lot of demand for the software. Um-

Kylie Davis: Mm-hmm.

Justin Williams: Nowadays it, it's different, there's software galore, but, um, that software is, is, is... There's a lot of point solutions out there that only sort of service one part of the problem. Um-

Kylie Davis: Mm-hmm

Justin Williams: ... we, we're looking to tackle the whole end-to-end, the whole building. Um, so rather than, you know, a two-year involvement, we're looking for a 50-year involvement. Um-

Kylie Davis: Right

Justin Williams: ... and generally, generally speaking, you know, that, that, that, that is through the developer, um, or, um, even a, even a financier or insurance company, um, oddly enough, that's, um, that's concerned with the whole, the, the big picture. That their, that their investment's actually risk protected. Um, uh, uh, and you do that by, by, um, yes, aiding the, aiding the builder and the, and the, um, subcontractors and the, the owner's corporation, but ultimately you need to give that visibility to, um, who's funding, who's funding the, um, the project.

Kylie Davis: You, you have just given me a major aha moment because it sort of brought together a whole bunch of conversations that I've had recently with people. But basic- but one of the things I see maybe we're doing incorrectly as an industry in prop tech is we're trying to solve the pain for end user clients, when in fact we should possibly be s- so- selling the value of the benefits of our software to- The finances, the financials-

Justin Williams: Yes

Kylie Davis: ... you know, the, the-

Justin Williams: Yes, absolutely

Kylie Davis: ... you know, follow the money, right? Follow the money.

Justin Williams: Ab- look, a- absolutely, absolutely.

Kylie Davis: Especially in this developer and big, and big space. Because trying to convince people that, "Look, what you're doing at the moment is really painful. Please stop it, like, we've got a solution," is like-

Justin Williams: Yep

Kylie Davis: ... "Yeah, yeah, yeah." But when you say, "Look, un- unless you start to be accountable for the dollars by, you know, like, the, the money behind this project wants you to save what you, like, save and deliver a better product and-

Justin Williams: Yes

Kylie Davis: ... and take-

Justin Williams: Yep

Kylie Davis: ... less time doing it," because the time, the, the quality and the, uh, and the cost of things in construction is so broken. Like it's-

Justin Williams: Yep

Kylie Davis: ... it's so unnecessarily-

Justin Williams: Yep

Kylie Davis: ... expensive, long, and, and unaffordable, right?

Justin Williams: Yep, yep.

Kylie Davis: It, it, it's the, because the way we construct currently is making our properties unaffordable.

Justin Williams: Absolutely.

Kylie Davis: We-

Justin Williams: Absolutely

Kylie Davis: ... yeah, maybe, maybe we need to pivot into influencing the construction. Let me ask you a question. Are you happy with your current operational workflow? Are you really satisfied with printing, signing, scanning, and emailing contracts, and then having to wait days for them to be signed and returned? Well, I didn't think so. And I have some good news. There is a better way. Dynamic Methods is the team behind leading real estate industry tech platforms such as Forms Live, REI Forms Live, and RealWorks. With a mission to make better happen, Dynamic Methods are dedicated to providing efficiency and productivity tools, boosting form technology to real estate agencies across Australia. Each month, 50,000 real estate professionals across 8,500 agencies from every Australian state and territory use Dynamic Methods form technology, empowering more than 7.2 million transactions a year. Dynamic Methods is also proud to host quality integrations with some of the PropTech industry's most powerful technologies, such as DocuSign, Secure Exchange, Equifax, and more, putting everything you need to get forms and contracts filled in, signed, verified, and exchanged into one easy platform. So if you're ready to ditch the pen and paper, make your agency look more efficient, head to dynamicmethods.com.au/partners to learn more. This episode is sponsored by EasyPay. EasyPay makes collecting PropTech payments easy. As one of Australia's leading subscription payment providers, EasyPay is helping real estate and PropTech businesses to improve rental collection rates, transform arrears management, and increase cashflow. Built for integration with a focus on partnerships, EasyPay's platform works seamlessly with your existing PropTech software, giving you access to industry-leading features that enable complex billing and settlement to support trustless business models. Discover the power of payment automation and leverage one of the first platforms to enable the pay to payment solution at easypay.com/proptech. For almost 16 years, Direct Connect has made moving easy for over 1.2 million renters and homeowners by arranging connections to a wide range of services, from electricity and gas to internet and pay TV. With a national team of local account managers who are experts in the industry, Direct Connect are there to support your real estate business with competitive rewards for every successful connection, plus an industry-leading rewards program. The connection process is simple, and Direct Connect's always-on guarantee ensures your customers will be connected on the day they move in. Direct Connect offers a range of market-leading suppliers, and Direct Connect has now made it even easier than ever to send connections directly integrating with MRI Software's Property Tree. So in just a few clicks while processing a tenancy, you can send the connection details through and get your customers connected. To make the right connection and find out how Direct Connect can make moving easy for you and easy for your customers, visit agents.directconnect.com.au or call 1300 558 169. So I want to unpack this a little bit more. You do have a really impressive client list. How... What's your, I mean, uh, without giving too much away, uh, what, how did, how did you win them over? Like, how did you-

Justin Williams: So-

Kylie Davis: ... how have you been so successful so quickly?

Justin Williams: So, um, you know, I, I, um, luckily enough have a, um, a, a, a decent network. Um-

Kylie Davis: Good

Justin Williams: ... but a network can only get you so far.

Kylie Davis: That always helps.

Justin Williams: Um, so, so, you know, having worked in property and construction, um, uh, for a number of years, I've, I've, um, uh, you know, I, I, I've, I've, I've had the ple- the, the pleasure of working for a tier one, uh, company, being ProBuild, who don't exist-

Kylie Davis: Yep

Justin Williams: ... anymore, as everyone knows. Um, but, uh, those ProBuild people, um, went, they scattered and went to different companies. So luckily I was able to, to contact some of the, those companies through the people that I knew. Um, uh, but like I was saying before, a network can only get you so far. So that's the, the next step with our business is to, um, scale the business, um, and, um, uh, do more marketing and, um, uh, potentially enga- engage a, um, a salesperson to actually, uh, to, to, to, to chase those prospects.

Kylie Davis: Yep. Yeah. Well, your black book does, is no use if your tech doesn't work right, so.

Justin Williams: Exactly.

Kylie Davis: All you do is really annoy everyone in your black book. So how, so how big are you guys now? How, how big is Construction ID by Wiseworking?

Justin Williams: Sure.

Kylie Davis: How do you measure it?

Justin Williams: So, so, look, w- we've got, we're, we're a small team. Um, a team of seven, um-

Kylie Davis: Mm-hmm

Justin Williams: ... based in, uh, in Victoria and, um, in Australia. So, um, we do, uh, the bulk of our development offshore. We do some development onshore-

Kylie Davis: Mm-hmm

Justin Williams: ... um, but we do the bulk of it offshore. Uh, and that's to, um, ensure, um, that we get a quick product. Um, but we do the quality management within Australia-

Kylie Davis: Mm-hmm

Justin Williams: ... um, and that's really important, um, that mix there. Um- And it allows it, the company, to be agile and, um, implement tweaks and customizations for clients, you know, quickly. Um, uh, but also, um, have that quality testing process there so that it's, um, it, it vets, it vets those developments and, and makes sure that, um, the developments are, are what their customer actually asked for.

Kylie Davis: Yeah.

Justin Williams: Or, as you say, work.

Kylie Davis: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, so what have been the biggest challenges in, in getting it to this stage so far?

Justin Williams: Um, look, the, the... Where do I start? Um, there's been lots, lots and lots of challenges. Uh, and like I was saying before, we've, we've, um, we've taken the approach of, of bootstrapping. So it gives us that, that flexibility to, um, um, to build the product to the size that it actually is. Um, uh, early days, we t- we, we made that decision to, to, um, try and hold on for as long as possible, um, before we got investors that, that, um, limited the scope, uh, of, of what this product could actually be. Um-

Kylie Davis: Mm-hmm

Justin Williams: ... so we've had the, we've had the opportunity to, um, grow the product. Um, uh, and now, I mean, that's, that's, that's got... that approach has got pros and cons. Uh-

Kylie Davis: Mm-hmm

Justin Williams: ... major con is that you don't, don't grow n- anywhere near- nearly quickly as you would-

Kylie Davis: As fast as you want, right?

Justin Williams: Um, um, and, and like that, that, that network, um, you know, my personal network been and, and, um, been the s- the only sales mechanism we've had in the past is, is, is a major one, um-

Kylie Davis: Yeah

Justin Williams: ... as well. So, so, you know, it's been, um, it's been a, a, a really real challenge and, and, um, and look, but some of the, the three major challenges that's, that I've, uh, listed down here, um, uh, make sure that you always do your research. Um, uh, so, and, and you don't, you don't, um, you don't, uh, overpromise. Um, you always underpromise.

Kylie Davis: Mm-hmm.

Justin Williams: Um, and you always overdeliver. Now, that's a-

Kylie Davis: Yep

Justin Williams: ... that's a, I know that's a, um, uh, a, a cliche, but, but, um, uh, clients, um, really appreciate, um, uh, something which is wi- something which is, I would say, um, something which is, which is believable. Um, uh, and look, the second thing that I learned is you don't trust, um, uh, you know, don't put all your trust into a good relationship or, or, um, or into good faith. Um, make sure you build a contract. Uh, protect yourself.

Kylie Davis: Yep.

Justin Williams: Um, my, my strength, my personal strength is, um, in, in solutions and solution delivery and solution architecture.

Kylie Davis: Yep.

Justin Williams: Um, but my weakness is in, um, commercials and, and, and contracts.

Kylie Davis: Yep.

Justin Williams: Um, so I brought on a co-founder, um, last year and, and look, that's, that's really changed the business and the way that the business is looking to scale up. Um, his first thing, um, he did was implement contracts, and that, that, um, that, that not only protects, um, the account, but it avoids the, the, the situation that we, we, we, we encountered lots of times in this journey where, you know, the, you've sold to an individual, they've got the vision, they've, they've, they've thought how great it is, and then someone, they leave the company, someone else new starts-

Kylie Davis: Yeah

Justin Williams: ... and they, they want, um, they want to replicate what they did at their old company. Um, and-

Kylie Davis: Yeah

Justin Williams: ... without the contract, you've got absolutely no protection against that. Um-

Kylie Davis: Yeah. Was there a third one?

Justin Williams: And the last one-

Kylie Davis: Yeah.

Justin Williams: Oh, sorry. You go. You go.

Kylie Davis: No, no. Go.

Justin Williams: Um, I was gonna say the last one is, um, uh, with your thinking is, is building, um, building a system and not just a solution. So, you know, if the client's asking for A, B, C, you don't just give them a product that's A, B, C, you think about what the D is, um-

Kylie Davis: Yep

Justin Williams: ... the, the big, the, how that fits into the bigger picture. Um, so, so, um, when, when you, when you build it, you're not just building A, B, and C all the time, A, B, and C, you actually think about A, B, C, D, um, and how strategically, um, you can actually benefit from that development.

Kylie Davis: Fantastic. Thank you for sharing that. Now, what's the name of your co-founder? Give him a shout-out.

Justin Williams: Um, so, so Craig Broadbent. Um-

Kylie Davis: Right

Justin Williams: ... and he, he, he, um, uh, over this journey, um, have met, met, uh, lots of, lots of potential, um, people to bring into the business, but, but he has gone through the journey personally. Um, he's actually built up a software company, sold the software, um, uh, and knows all the pitfalls that, that, that can be, um, can be had during, during the, during the journey.

Kylie Davis: Fantastic. And look, I loved your, I loved what you've mentioned about the challenges, 'cause it talks about as a founder, you have to recognize both your strengths and your weaknesses, right? And, and then-

Justin Williams: Yes

Kylie Davis: ... find, build a team around you that complements your weaknesses basically. Or, I mean, that sounds weird, like, and it sounds like it's negative, and I don't mean that, that-

Justin Williams: No, it's very, very true

Kylie Davis: ... in any way, shape, or form. You actually want people who are good at the stuff that you're not good at-

Justin Williams: Yes

Kylie Davis: ... but you need the self-awareness to know, look, I'm not good at that, but it is important, and so I'm gonna not abdicate responsibility for it, but I recognize how important it is, and I'm gonna let good people-

Justin Williams: Absolutely

Kylie Davis: ... do good work in that space, and I'm gonna get out of their way and let them do it, right? Fan- fantastic. So what, what is the one thing that you wish you had... L- what's the one thing you know now that you wish when you started that you knew?

Justin Williams: Um, look, look, uh, I, you know, I touched on the point, um, before about, um, uh, not, not sort of, um, being too naive and, um, and, and-

Kylie Davis: Trusting

Justin Williams: ... trusting. Um-

Kylie Davis: Trusting. In the, in the vicious world of commercial and be- and con- construction.

Justin Williams: Yes. Look, that, that's, that's, that's the one thing I knew. And, and-

Kylie Davis: Yeah

Justin Williams: ... look, um- The other thing, um, which I've learnt, and, and s- you exact- you touched on that point just before, is, um, uh, working with the right people. Um, and, and having, having the right people in your organization, whether that's as an employer or as a co-founder. Um, but having that right sounding board in there to, um, to challenge, challenge your decision-making. But also, um, uh, as you said, you need, you need that, that self-awareness to know that, that, um, you, you, you need, you need that, um, that other bit of advice. Because, uh, I, I know that, um, if, if, uh, I'd have had that sounding board, you know, um, uh, you know, Construction ID could have been started two or three years earlier. And, and, um, uh, we would, uh, we would, we... The country, um, the industry wouldn't be in the situation it hopefully... It, it isn't in, in at the moment, where, um, companies are going insolvent, and, and, you know, as you said, like, you know, that everyone's complaining about costs and the lack of revenue when, when in reality, you know, that the, um, uh, the discussion, um, should start at a, a different point.

Kylie Davis: Yeah.

Justin Williams: Um, and that might be with the financiers or insurers-

Kylie Davis: Yeah

Justin Williams: ... of the, uh, of the projects.

Kylie Davis: Yeah. It's like we're trying to fix it from... We're trying to fix it backwards at the moment.

Justin Williams: Yes.

Kylie Davis: We're kind of looking at the finished product and going, "Oh, they should have made-"

Justin Williams: Yeah, it's been broken.

Kylie Davis: And, and-

Justin Williams: And, and we're trying to put it all back together.

Kylie Davis: Yeah. And, and I see this across so much of the legislative areas that cover all of proptech, whether it's commercial or construction or, or residential. Governments are there to protect consumers, and the way they protect consumers is putting layers of, you know, or putting legislation or, or laws in place.

Justin Williams: Bureaucracy.

Kylie Davis: And yeah, bureaucracy in place. Which should be... Which there's two ways we can look at it. We can look at it as bureaucracy that is just annoying and difficult and adds cost and problems.

Justin Williams: Mm.

Kylie Davis: Or we can see it as governance that is indicating to us what is wrong in the current business model.

Justin Williams: Mm. Mm.

Kylie Davis: So we need to actually be taking... We need to... And the problem that we've got with it at the moment is that adding legislative complexity and obligation on a broken process puts more pressure on the people to deliver those protections, while also delivering to the economies that are being required of do it faster, do it smart. They're like, "Do it cheaper."

Justin Williams: Mm. Mm.

Kylie Davis: And so we- we are really at this crisis inflection point at the moment, where the risks to consumers are, are extraordinarily high because the burden of achieving the end result is completely human-focused.

Justin Williams: Absolutely.

Kylie Davis: Or we're insisting that it's completely human-focused-

Justin Williams: Yes

Kylie Davis: ... 'cause we're not gonna, we're not gonna... We're reluctant to embrace the technology that will actually-

Justin Williams: Mm. Mm

Kylie Davis: ... enable us to. And, you know, there's a great saying that, you know, if the only, if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. And ironically, I think the issue for the construction industry is to understand there are, there is a whole toolkit out there of different, of different, you know, tools.

Justin Williams: Yes.

Kylie Davis: Uh, including toolkits like Construction ID that can be used to start to bring all this stuff together to let your people do the people stuff, and let the, the governance and the process and the compliance and the, the documentation and the data start to come-

Justin Williams: Absolutely

Kylie Davis: ... together to really, you know, extract great value from your business and really impact your ability to deliver. Sorry, I went off on a soapbox.

Justin Williams: Absolutely. And, and look, that, that, that, you know, that... I think that's because people see technology as something that will replace you or make you redundant. They don't actually see it, it's something that's there to actually assist you, um, and assist you, um, in a positive way. Um, in a positive way that, that not just benefits you, but, but, um, can benefit anyone, everyone, um, on the building. Um, and, and, um, because of that mindset, uh, uh, you know, I, I, I feel that the whole digitiza- digi- uh, that digitization of, of construction and, and property is a bit of a buzzword at the moment. Feel that the only, the journey's only really just started. Look, all we're doing-

Kylie Davis: Oh, totally

Justin Williams: ... at the moment is replicating, um, what is there already. And what is there already is, you know, it's, it's clearly broken and it's not working. Uh, it needs to be improved, needs to be changed. Um, uh, you know, it's when, it's when we, we consider future technologies like, you know, artificial intelligence and robotic building and, and, and, um, you know, that's really, really j- just a few of the, uh, the benefits, beneficial technologies that are out there. But that, it's that next stage where, where, um, we're really gonna, um, uh, jump and, and jump forward, and construction's really gonna change. Um, but, but first of all, we need to change that mindset that technology's is just there to replace me or make me redundant.

Kylie Davis: Yeah. The future is collaborative, right? The future is-

Justin Williams: Yes. Correct

Kylie Davis: ... that combination of, of technology and human-

Justin Williams: Yep

Kylie Davis: ... with us all doing the things that we're both... Well, with both sides doing the stuff that we're really good at natively.

Justin Williams: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Kylie Davis: Um, I got asked at the PIPA Conference, um, recently how do people compete with AI? It's like, well, be more human, but don't compete. Collaborate.

Justin Williams: Yeah.

Kylie Davis: Like, that's... Yeah. That's... Because artificial intelligence is, by its nature, ar- artificial.

Justin Williams: Yep.

Kylie Davis: And while it-

Justin Williams: Yep

Kylie Davis: ... can process and capture an awful lot more than we can as humans and, uh, and take a lot more data into account-

Justin Williams: Mm

Kylie Davis: ... we're st- we're still at, we're still at the, we're still in the... We still hold the reins around how it's, how it's structured and how it's working.

Justin Williams: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Kylie Davis: So, so Justin, this seems like a normal spot to add in or to ask the question around what you see the trends are or what's gonna be impacting Construction ID or, or the technology in the construction industry over the next five years. How do you think... It, it... Well, we, uh... I feel like construction is so nascent in this space, but has- So many, and, and too many of the builders or developers out there who go, "Oh, you know, this is all very unknown and very difficult and I don't..."

Justin Williams: Mm.

Kylie Davis: Like, no, residential prop tech and its adoption, and then commercial prop tech and its... Like, residential adoption is head of the curve because it started the earliest. And so you can see how this, we can see how this goes, right? There are, there are trends-

Justin Williams: Mm. Absolutely

Kylie Davis: ... and things to recognize. And commercial property is, has been sort of a bit behind it, but, um, but is now sort of following exactly the same or a very similar adoption curve.

Justin Williams: Yes.

Kylie Davis: But how do you, how do you... What do you see are the next five years gonna look like for construction technology?

Justin Williams: Well, look, look, I, I... A lot of, lot of... As, as I said, we- we're, we're replicating a lot of pr- of, um, uh, processes at the moment.

Kylie Davis: Mm-hmm.

Justin Williams: Um, uh, but I think the next five years can really, really highlight how powerful data is in cons- in construction, property and construction. Um, data can be used to actually prevent a lot of issues occurring in the first place. Um, the, the, the biggest costs as, uh, uh, as I, um, I, I said over the life cycle of a, a, of a, a building is rework. You know, fixing up-

Kylie Davis: Mm

Justin Williams: ... old issues which, which have been, um, fixed previously, um, but fixed previously incorrectly, or in a Band-Aid way that, that only lasts a few years and then suddenly the, the same problem resurfaces. What, uh, AI and, and, um, machine learning can do is actually interrogate that data and say that, "Okay, well, um, yeah, you've got a potential problem there. Um, and unless that problem is fixed in this way, um, then that problem will reoccur."

Kylie Davis: Mm.

Justin Williams: So that rather than them, um, dealing with costs or, or fixing something once it's broken, um, uh, you can use, use that data to actually, um, uh, forecast that, that issue occurring and prevent that cost in the first place.

Kylie Davis: Mm.

Justin Williams: Um, and, um, uh, data, data can actually save you money. Um, and, and again, when that, that, that, um, industry mindset changes, um, and, uh, like you said, uh, going, going where the money is, um, is, is possibly the best way. If you tell the, um, insurance company or the, the financier, um, that, you know, these, these processes need to be implemented to prevent cost blowouts later on, then, then it's more-

Kylie Davis: Oh, it'll happen

Justin Williams: ... exactly.

Kylie Davis: It'll happen.

Justin Williams: Exactly.

Kylie Davis: Yeah. I think, I think there's a superpower here that we need to unleash and we need to em- embrace our brothers and sisters in the insurance and the finance world. I am making a note to wr- to reach out to FinTech Australia and insure, insure and RegTechs as we speak.

Justin Williams: Hopefully they listen to this podcast.

Kylie Davis: Yeah. No, I think I might r- reach out to a couple of them and say, "Right, I think we need to we need to talk." Um, well, look, um, and so what is on the roadmap for, for Construction ID by Wise Working, Justin? What's, what's coming up in your next couple of releases or in your future?

Justin Williams: Sure. Sure. So, um, uh, look, i- there's the, the short-term plan, which is, um, making things look, look, uh, look sexy.

Kylie Davis: Mm.

Justin Williams: Look, look always-

Kylie Davis: We love that

Justin Williams: ... aesthetically pleasing.

Kylie Davis: Yep.

Justin Williams: Um, uh, there's, you know, there's, there's, there's functional improvements, but the really exciting stuff that we're working on at the moment is with that, that big data that we, we was talking about before. Um, you know, um, we're, we're, we're looking into, um, uh, really exciting stuff like augmented reality. Um, we're looking into, um, uh, what artificial intelligence looks like with that, with that, um, with all that data there. Um, and, um, uh, we're also looking, um, at, at building up, um, some relationships with, um, uh, companies that specialize in robotic building. Because I, I really foresee that, um, in, in, in, uh, I don't know, if it's five years or 10 years' time, that, that that will, um, that will have a major change on our industry. Um, a- and, um, and aligning ourselves with, um, good channel partners, um, is, is definitely on the, um, radar. We're already working with, with companies like Dropbox and MYOB. Um, uh, but also, um, uh, uh, looking into, uh, uh, companies that are, are, are focused on, on, um, on research and innovation, and how we can bring that into this industry. Um, and look, over time, you know, I think, uh, that through scaling and increasing the adoption of Construction ID, we'll, hopefully we'll change the industry. Um, and, um, that, that change on the industry will have an impact on, um, not only the economy, but also society.

Kylie Davis: Mm. It would be wonderful. I mean, I haven't done any... This is a opinion, not any kind of research, but I am gonna go away and have a look at how much has construction, how much have construction costs increased over the past five years-

Justin Williams: Yes

Kylie Davis: ... or eight to 10. Like, b- five years and 10 years, I wanna kinda have a look at that period. Because wouldn't it be wonderful if from now on, through the adoption of the technology that we know is out there, the next five years actually costs stayed the same-

Justin Williams: Yes

Kylie Davis: ... but we started to actually produce more.

Justin Williams: Absolutely.

Kylie Davis: 'Cause we know that, we know that productivity-

Justin Williams: We're more efficient

Kylie Davis: ... in construction. Yeah.

Justin Williams: Mm.

Kylie Davis: Because we know that product... Wouldn't it be... You know, that would be a massive, a, a massive real imp- improvement. Um, I mean, it would be effectively thing, you know, things effectively sort of reducing in cost 'cause they're staying the same. But, but not do that at the expense of human beings in the process.

Justin Williams: Yes.

Kylie Davis: Like, actually-

Justin Williams: Correct. Correct

Kylie Davis: ... through, through construction adoption. Uh-

Justin Williams: Yep

Kylie Davis: ... technology adoption. Now, Justin- Construction ID by WiseWorking was a finalist in the PropTech Awards this year, and on the night there was a bit of a glitch and we didn't give you the due recognition that you deserved as a finalist. So I am very sorry about that. That was a, it was actually that was straight down to me not proofing the slides properly. So I'm really sorry about that. But well done on being a, um, a finalist in the PropTech Awards. Um, I-

Justin Williams: Thanks, Kylie

Kylie Davis: ... I've, I've loved talking to you about Construction ID and WiseWorking and the whole, uh, that whole construction ecosystem. So thank you so much for being on the PropTech Podcast.

Justin Williams: Thank you so much. Thank you.