Full transcript: Lawrence Williamson — Avenue Bank: turning a 4-week paper-based bank guarantee into a 24-hour digital process
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This is an automated transcript of the episode, lightly edited for readability. Please excuse any errors.
Lawrence Williamson: Thank you, Kylie. It's great to be here.
Kylie Davis: So look, our first question is always the hardest, Lawrence, and that is your elevator pitch. So what is the elevator pitch for Avenue Bank?
Lawrence Williamson: Yeah. Um, Avenue is the, uh, first and only Australian bank to specialize in bank guarantees, um, specifically for commercial property. Um, our customers can apply in five minutes and have a cash-backed bank guarantee within 24 hours without visiting a branch.
Kylie Davis: Wow, okay. So let's unpack what a bank guarantee is and why they should be used more in, in property.
Lawrence Williamson: Um, yeah, look, uh, it's actually, um, quite a important financial instrument that's really at the foundations of the commercial property industry.
Kylie Davis: Mm-hmm.
Lawrence Williamson: Um, anybody that has a commercial lease, um, at some point was, would, will probably have a, um, bank guarantee.
Kylie Davis: Right.
Lawrence Williamson: So they are very widely used, although the times when you need them, um, it, you probably only need to apply for one every five, maybe 10 years. Um-
Kylie Davis: Right
Lawrence Williamson: ... it's not something that anybody ever gets a, a, a good understanding of, um-
Kylie Davis: Yep
Lawrence Williamson: ... because they're infrequent, but also very important.
Kylie Davis: Right, and so what, what are they doing? Is it like a, a rental bond that a residential person would pay, a rental-
Lawrence Williamson: That is the, in its simplest form, the best way to understand it. So it is a rental bond, but in commercial, obviously, it's, it's called a lease. And, um, you'll be asked to put down as a bond anywhere from sort of three to 12 months, um, of the rent-
Kylie Davis: Yeah
Lawrence Williamson: ... in a bank guarantee as security.
Kylie Davis: Right, and so how big is the market? Like, uh, like the commercial property markets, the rental market's pretty huge. How, how big in Australia, uh, is the rental guarantee market?
Lawrence Williamson: Um, it's significant. So in, uh, Australia, there's $9 billion, um, held in bank guarantees, and probably over $9 billion. Um, and that's just for commercial leasing alone. And then add to that, um, bank guarantees that are used as security for construction projects, and it's-
Kylie Davis: Yeah
Lawrence Williamson: ... a very big market.
Kylie Davis: Right, okay. So I just wanna unpack this a little bit because I'm not really super familiar with the sector. Um, when I, if I'm a, if I've got a commercial lease and I take a, a bank guarantee, is that like when I get a rental bond? It just sits there and earns zero interest for me, and maybe I get it back at the end, or what's the relationship that happens?
Lawrence Williamson: Um, so yeah, it, the, um, the whole value of having a bank guarantee is that we do pay interest-
Kylie Davis: Mm-hmm
Lawrence Williamson: ... um, on the term deposit. So customers give us their cash, we hold it in a term deposit for the life of the bank guarantee, which aligns with the time that they've got that, uh, that lease.
Kylie Davis: Right. Okay, okay. And so how is what you're doing different to the way that it's always traditionally been done?
Lawrence Williamson: Um, look, traditional banks see bank guarantees as a non-core auxiliary product. Um, and therefore, it really hasn't had any innovation, um, in decades.
Kylie Davis: Right.
Lawrence Williamson: Uh, so where we add value is being able to digitalize the process for customers-
Kylie Davis: Mm
Lawrence Williamson: ... um, meaning that they can apply online, um, and that's everything is digital from the application to, um- The ID verification, all that sort of process, um, and getting the bank guarantee issued. So whereas the other banks, um, traditionally it's still paper-based, um, can take many, many weeks, up to four to six weeks in some cases, depending on-
Kylie Davis: Oh, God
Lawrence Williamson: ... your location or your banking relationship. Um, and then, uh, it's also often requires you to actually visit the branch at least once to collect the money-
Kylie Davis: Does it-
Lawrence Williamson: ... or more times. Mm-hmm
Kylie Davis: ... do, do they still exist?
Lawrence Williamson: Well, that's it. And, uh-
Kylie Davis: Where do you go?
Lawrence Williamson: Correct. Where do you go at a time where they're closing down many branches, you know, especially regional Australia. But they have-
Kylie Davis: Yeah
Lawrence Williamson: ... a process that requires you to find the, the one branch that you can go and get a bank guarantee and it, uh, can be quite daunting.
Kylie Davis: Oh, God. It sounds... That, that does sound like the banking system. Um, so, so I just... So, uh, so Laurence, is it, does it... And you mentioned before that it's also for developers. Is this one that buyers of new homes can... Is, is it the same kind of bank guarantee, uh, or a deposit guarantee, or am I mis- mistaking that?
Lawrence Williamson: So bank guarantees can be used for any purposes. Um, we launched focusing, um, mostly on commercial leasing.
Kylie Davis: Yeah.
Lawrence Williamson: Um, but what we found, and based on demand and inquiry that was incoming, that there was also a big section of the market that were under-serviced for bank guarantees for other purposes. So when it comes to construction and development projects, they are putting down, um, as contract security, um, quite often a bank guarantee for things like, um, retentions, defect liabilities, um, utility bonds and environment bonds or other council requirements as well. Um, so if anything the, uh, the service, um, provided by the banks, it, and, um, potential for delays actually gets even larger when we start to go into, um, bank guarantees for other purposes outside of leasing. And, uh, we have recently launched, um, that as a digital application process as well, um, which we're calling the, um, our Performance Bank Guarantee.
Kylie Davis: Right. Okay. And so that it... Is that a guarantee that the builder or the developer would take to protect their business, or is it a guarantee that the buyer of an off-the-plan product would take to, as an alternative to putting down a deposit? For the-
Lawrence Williamson: Um, so it's, it's used as a form of bond or, like warranty.
Kylie Davis: Mm-hmm.
Lawrence Williamson: So, um, they will be required to put down a, a deposit to make sure they're sort of meeting timelines. Um, because often projects are subject to meeting, you know, strict sort of timelines. If, if X isn't in then Y can't start, things like that.
Kylie Davis: Yeah.
Lawrence Williamson: So the performance side of things is, um, from there. It's also, um, drawdowns on payments for contractors and subcontractors. Um, and then there is that sort of, uh, further warranties for, like, utilities and infrastructure. Um, often, you know, a protection against, um, damage maybe to water pipes or plants and things like that.
Kylie Davis: Right. So, so what I'm hearing is that it's a highly complicated and really important financial device that's required that the banks have completely ignored and made everyone do manually up, up until you guys really came along.
Lawrence Williamson: I, I think so, yeah.
Kylie Davis: Okay.
Lawrence Williamson: It's, it's deceptively complex, I think.
Kylie Davis: Yeah.
Lawrence Williamson: And it's because, um, part of it is that there are so many related parties that can be involved. Um, you often have a landlord or beneficiary, um, sometimes multiples. Um, from the customer side you've got your directors, um, however that may be. Um, but then you've also got solicitors on both sides, internal, external, asset managers, leasing agent, tenant rep. There's a whole lot of people that at some point could, uh, be part of the communications in, uh, getting the bank guarantee issued. And, uh, our whole focus is maintaining relationships with everybody that's involved in the whole ecosystem.
Kylie Davis: Fantastic. And so from it being a very manual, go visit the branch, can take you up to four weeks, could take four weeks just to find the branch, but, you know, but, like, doing it that way, to how, and to you guys digitizing it, how, how long does it take with Advance, um, with Avenue Bank?
Lawrence Williamson: So Avenue Bank, um, if, uh, customers have their lease details and, uh, are quick on doing their ID verification, the bank guarantee itself can be done in 24 hours.
Kylie Davis: Ooh.
Lawrence Williamson: And we're even getting more and more cases where we're doing them same day.
Kylie Davis: Fantastic. Awesome. So, so you're a kind of fintech proptech hybrid I'm seeing, I'm kind of hearing here?
Lawrence Williamson: We are, or as I call it, we're a prop, uh, proptech with a banking license.
Kylie Davis: Right. Okay. Yeah. No, I like that. We'll, we'll, we'll pay that. I kind of feel like the proptech fintech relationship is a little bit like Australia and New Zealand. Like, we'll claim it.
Lawrence Williamson: Yeah.
Kylie Davis: Um, so, so tell us a little bit about your background, Laurence. So, uh, like how, how did you come into this? 'Cause you guys have been around since what, 2018?
Lawrence Williamson: Yeah. Look, um, I mean, uh, my, my involvement started from effectively the day from when they got their full banking license.
Kylie Davis: Mm-hmm.
Lawrence Williamson: Um, my background was actually in, um, financial advice.
Kylie Davis: Mm-hmm.
Lawrence Williamson: Um, I started that probably a few months before the GFC started.
Kylie Davis: Oh.
Lawrence Williamson: Which was, you know, very interesting times and, um, dealing with a lot of change as well. I mean, that's where we saw, saw rapid growth with, um, online share trading, um, a lot of new regulations coming into place. And, uh, I decided to pivot and, um, look for something that was, um, more technology-focused. And, um, through that I, I took a role at REA Group, um, heading up their, um, commercial property business, um, looking after their major customers. And, uh, had a great time and great experience, uh, with, uh, REA Group. And, um, you know- That, uh, interestingly, talking with, uh, one of my general managers that I really looked up to, was asking him for career advice one day, and said, "You know, what would you recommend to somebody that's looking to have a role like yourself one day?" And, uh, he said, "I wish I had more product knowledge." So, uh, I don't think he realized at the time I would take it so literally, but, uh, I went from that to selling custom software.
Kylie Davis: Mm-hmm.
Lawrence Williamson: And, uh, interestingly, I was then selling custom software for, uh, investment tools, and working with the exact same customers, uh, that w- were part of the decision to pivot in my career. So, um, building things like the advanced charting, and stock screeners, and, um, market data, things like that.
Kylie Davis: Right. Awesome. Awesome.
Lawrence Williamson: But ultimately, I always wanted to get back into commercial property, and, um, Avenue Bank was the sort of perfect fit in terms of, um, you know, it brought together the sort of, uh, background that I had in, um, not only finance, but also technology and commercial property.
Kylie Davis: Fantastic. So, so it's a big deal to get a, a banking license in Australia, isn't it?
Lawrence Williamson: Um, I think so. Well, look, our team would certainly say so. I mean, they worked extremely hard, and they are a very, um, smart and persistent bunch. Um-
Kylie Davis: Yep
Lawrence Williamson: ... bank license itself took around five years, and I mean-
Kylie Davis: Yeah, right
Lawrence Williamson: ... that was at a time where, you know, it, there was two years of COVID, and changing regulations for new banks. Um, but it just shows the persistence and determination and work that they've sort of put into. And, um, yeah, for that, you know, we're very, very, um, proud of.
Kylie Davis: Yeah. So, so tell me about the team. How, how big is Avenue Bank?
Lawrence Williamson: Um, we're currently around 20 and growing.
Kylie Davis: Mm-hmm.
Lawrence Williamson: Um, so we are currently, uh, doing new hires in, um, product and marketing as well as the sales and distribution team.
Kylie Davis: Ooh, I know a few people I'll hook up.
Lawrence Williamson: And, um, yeah, we're all based here in Sydney, um, at our, at our, um, head office. And, um, yeah, it works great.
Kylie Davis: Right. And so how m- how much do you have in guarantees? Can you give us a, um, an understanding of how, how successful you've been in this space?
Lawrence Williamson: Um, yeah. I guess, um, look, since, um, launch, we've supported over 500 lease transactions-
Kylie Davis: Mm-hmm
Lawrence Williamson: ... and have over 150, um, landlords or beneficiaries, um, with an active bank guarantee. Um, to put that into some sort of, uh, perspective, I guess, um, you know, talking to one of the large shopping center retailers, they do around 2,000 bank guarantees a year.
Kylie Davis: Right.
Lawrence Williamson: Um, so we're about a quarter of that. Um-
Kylie Davis: Yep
Lawrence Williamson: ... we're probably, um, the same sort of volumes that you'd expect from a New South Wales sort of leasing team. They're a decent size.
Kylie Davis: Right. Okay. Okay. So, uh, so clearly you've got quite a lot of runway to go.
Lawrence Williamson: We do.
Kylie Davis: Yeah.
Lawrence Williamson: And, um, it's, uh, there is plenty of transactions out there that we can be helping with. Um, but, you know, I really am quite proud of that effort considering that we were new and out there getting brand awareness and, and talking, um, from sort of day one.
Kylie Davis: Oh, yeah. Look, uh, you know, getting your first 100 clients is always, I think, the hardest, the, to getting the first, you know, getting the n- the, the next 900. So, so Lawrence, who's the founder of the organization? Like, what, how, how did it, how did it start in itself before you joined?
Lawrence Williamson: Yeah. So Avenue Bank was founded back in 2018, um-
Kylie Davis: Mm-hmm
Lawrence Williamson: ... by Colin Porter and Dale Hurley. Um, they'd come from a company from, called CreditorWatch, and, um, they, uh, saw the opportunity for innovation from their own personal liv- experience of having to go and get a bank guarantee.
Kylie Davis: Googled bank rep-
Lawrence Williamson: Exactly. Yeah. So-
Kylie Davis: Bank branches near me and got sent to-
Lawrence Williamson: Correct
Kylie Davis: ... to all the-
Lawrence Williamson: And it just shows the, uh-... the entrepreneurial nature that they stood up it, stood up and said, "Uh, we're gonna build a bank."
Kylie Davis: Yeah.
Lawrence Williamson: And, uh, yeah, that's how it all sort of started.
Kylie Davis: Fantastic. And so, so what are some, some of the biggest challenges?
Lawrence Williamson: Um, some of the challenges, I guess, were we built an end-to-end, um, digital solution.
Kylie Davis: Mm-hmm.
Lawrence Williamson: And what we realized very quickly was that, um, a lot of the landlords and beneficiaries do still have, um, a preference for a physical pa- bank guarantee. Um, they've got, you know, tried and tested processes in place that have probably been built and stood up for many years to meet the requirements of the traditional banks. Um, so we very quickly launched the ability to provide physical bank guarantees. Um, so we offer both and have no preference from, for either. And, um, we'll continue to work in partnership with the industry as their, um, processes evolve and we s- um, start to see, um, broader acceptance of, of a digital bank guarantee, which, um, has lots of benefits in terms of just the speed and, uh, the administration side of things.
Kylie Davis: So, so just help me understand, and, and anyone who's a listener who's not kind of au fait with the space. So the digital one is the, is that I can get it really quickly, I can get it in less than a day, but what I've s- got a digital certificate that shows me that I have the guarantee compared to something printed out with a wax stamp on it or something?
Lawrence Williamson: Correct.
Kylie Davis: Oh, God.
Lawrence Williamson: So, um, so effectively, as soon as funds are cleared in a, in the customer's bank account-
Kylie Davis: Yeah
Lawrence Williamson: ... the digital bank guarantee is issued within minutes. Um, so they do have a copy of a, a digital instrument.
Kylie Davis: Yeah.
Lawrence Williamson: Um, but the preference for many landlords is still for the physical bank guarantee with a stamped wedding sig- signature, um, more so that they can verify the authenticity of it.
Kylie Davis: Right. So they can go through the digital process, and then at the end they just get a, a printout with a stamp, or do they have to go through the manual process with you guys in order to get that physical version of it?
Lawrence Williamson: So it, um, the instrument in itself is a, um, traditional guarantee which they're used to. So it is a, a paper-based physical document-
Kylie Davis: Yeah
Lawrence Williamson: ... um, that provides them with that security that, of the authenticity of the bank guarantee and confirms that we hold the cash on behalf of the customer. Um, that process is a little bit manual in terms of we produce that instrument-
Kylie Davis: Yeah
Lawrence Williamson: ... and then it needs to be either collected, um, from our branch or delivered, um, to the landlord, and we'll even offer a service where they're in a CBD, we will deliver them in person to the solicitor or the landlord, or they're being, uh, delivered-
Kylie Davis: Scrooge McDuck. Yeah. Who will roll it into a scroll and stick it in a... Like, and so, so what I'm hearing is that you have clients who are s- who would prefer to go through a four-week process in order to get something physical. Is that, or, or are you able to actually-
Lawrence Williamson: No, that process, that-
Kylie Davis: ... speed that up process Speed that process up, yeah
Lawrence Williamson: ... no, so we are, we are even faster even with that physical process, so they are-
Kylie Davis: Right
Lawrence Williamson: ... receiving it within 24 hours. So we are still producing it at the same time as the digital.
Kylie Davis: Okay.
Lawrence Williamson: It's just more around, um, what is the potential time to get that physical to the right person, and that's the-
Kylie Davis: Ah
Lawrence Williamson: ... potential time is, yeah.
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Lawrence Williamson: E- e- exactly
Kylie Davis: ... do you think that's a psychology going on?
Lawrence Williamson: Um, I don't necessarily think that's it. I think it is the, the processes around, um, actually making a claim or returning the funds with the bank guarantee.
Kylie Davis: Ah.
Lawrence Williamson: So what often happens is they get lost or, um, assets change hands.
Kylie Davis: Yeah.
Lawrence Williamson: So when you sell a property, you've actually then got to change and move all of the bank guarantees from previous owner to the new owner, and that process, um, they feel much more comfortable if there's a physical bank guarantee that is being transferred for an exchange. So, uh, part of it is the authenticity process, uh, making sure that the, um, bank guarantee is genuine and, um-
Kylie Davis: Mm-hmm
Lawrence Williamson: ... that they are validating that the funds are held by the bank. Um, we've actually identified that as an issue and, um, very recently launched the ability for landlords and their asset managers to authenticate the, um, bank guarantee is genuine, um, through a- Um, directly through our website. Um-
Kylie Davis: Okay
Lawrence Williamson: ... with just a few clicks. Um, something that I believe is a market first in terms of, yeah, the ability to do that, um, without getting in contact with the bank.
Kylie Davis: Is it, so is it, like, almost like, well, we have a filing cabinet with a file in it which has all the documentation for this property, so in the event that the property changes hands, everything in that file gets w- we go through that file and change it all over, and some of it will be the guarantee, some of it'll be all the other gazillions of contracting and things that have to be... Is that the workflow that you guys are slotting into?
Lawrence Williamson: Correct. There is-
Kylie Davis: Yeah
Lawrence Williamson: ... um, somebody, uh, that is collecting, um, these bank guarantees physically, and, um, they are being stored away in safes at solicitors offices or with their, um, lease administration team within, uh, their own team.
Kylie Davis: Right. Okay. Well, that c- yeah, and so I guess the anxiety is, I don't want that sitting in someone's email that then leaves the company and then we can't access it or we can't find it ever again.
Lawrence Williamson: Yeah.
Kylie Davis: Is it?
Lawrence Williamson: I think so. Exactly.
Kylie Davis: I'm just, I'm just trying to see in my head how, what the anxiety would be. But I- but, you know, the struggle is real, I suppose. Um, so, uh, okay, and so how... If, if the guarantee goes pear-shaped, then they have to, do they, they have to claim on it or it has to be claimed on? Does that, is there any way that you make that easier or, or what, how does that look like?
Lawrence Williamson: We, we, we certainly, we certainly do. So, um, we made sure that we were adding value not only for the customers in terms of the digital application, but also for the beneficiaries and landlords and their asset management team who deal with the bank guarantees. Um-
Kylie Davis: Mm-hmm
Lawrence Williamson: ... some of the problems that they face is, um, around that claims process. So, um, we have simplified it in terms of, um, collecting, um, details of their authorized representatives upfront, um, and any escalation points in order to quickly verify and act on bank guarantee. Um, that process means that we can pay claims or, you know, return the funds back to the customer within 48 hours.
Kylie Davis: Oh, wow. And how does 48 hours compare to life in the old days?
Lawrence Williamson: We've been told it could be weeks, potentially even months, yes.
Kylie Davis: Right. Right. So, so one of the reasons I'm so curious about this space is because I've had some really good conversations lately with Mark McDuffie from Downsizer who's doing the residential, you know, guarantees. And I, I appreciate that they're a different thing, but, um, as a result of that, I've been having some conversations with, uh, you know, agents that I know in the sector and, and develop- like, property developers and, and people that work in that sector. And, um, and Mark McDuffie has a great saying that there's some muscle memory anxiety around deposit or around, you know, deposit bonds and guarantees and things like that in the, in the building sector, probably from the GFC, where that because of that drama around claiming makes them an unpop- it lo- like, it, it has... That the industry kind of has to get over that, um, that stigma of it being just so hard to claim that, um... Does that apply here, or is it because it's, you've got to have a guarantee in order to get a lease, it, it, it's kind of a bit easier?
Lawrence Williamson: Um, look, it, it certainly does play a big part. Um, and we have seen behaviors change, um, in certain sectors of the market. So, um, one of the, um, parts of that is that there are, um, you know, options for what you put down as security.
Kylie Davis: Mm-hmm.
Lawrence Williamson: And, um, that could be a cash bond as opposed to a bank guarantee. The preference is certainly for a bank guarantee because with cash bonds there are the operational, um, sort of costs associated with, with having a team that's managing a trust account. There's the audits that are, um, part of that as well, and the fact that a lot of the time when a cash bond's put down, no one's earning any interest.
Kylie Davis: Mm-hmm.
Lawrence Williamson: So, um, the benefits are there in terms of the bank guarantee, um, providing a return. But the, in some areas where bank guarantees have been so difficult to, um, actually obtain in the past, they've moved to a, um, preference for a cash bond because it's all too hard. So we are now seeing that sort of reverse because it's like actually there's the benefits of using, um, Avenue Bank who can do it, um, in 24 hours and returns really quick, and we're seeing that behavior change.
Kylie Davis: Yeah. Awesome. What has been the biggest, um, what's been the biggest barrier to getting more people to adopting it, Lawrence? Is it just because you guys are so new or, uh, um, or just awareness or-
Lawrence Williamson: Look, I think-
Kylie Davis: I mean, and you were winners of the PropTech Awards this year, so in your sector, so in your category, so congratulations on that. That was, that was great to see.
Lawrence Williamson: Thank you so much. No, look, I think awareness is, is gonna be a big one, um, because again, like I said, most people only need a bank guarantee every five, maybe 10 years. Um-
Kylie Davis: Mm-hmm
Lawrence Williamson: ... I think for the next, you know, five years plus, I'll still be introducing myself as Lawrence from Avenue Bank-... we specialize in bank guarantees, because we are a niche product, and they only need us once and it's sort of set and forget. So-
Kylie Davis: Yeah
Lawrence Williamson: ... um, that is key to it. But, um, we've had, uh, very great industry support and, um, not only that, anybody that has been through that process, you know, tenants that have personally faced the difficulties of bank guarantees, when they hear about us, often the first part is they, they don't believe we can do it in 24 hours. Um-
Kylie Davis: Yeah, it's like, "What now?"
Lawrence Williamson: Right. And, uh, and the growing number of customers that come to us and then all of a sudden they're like, "We're never going anywhere else," and they're up to their fourth, fifth, sixth bank guarantee with us because they actually are in multiple locations and they are just, yeah, very happy with the service.
Kylie Davis: Yeah. Yeah. They, they love not having to find a bank branch. Do you think this is the future of, of banking, Lawrence? That we're... That there are going to be more banks that specialize in niche but highly spec- s- specific products? Because what, what I'm observing is after I spoke at the, at the Senate inquiry last year on, into finance in the, uh, you know, property, housing, and, and finance, the, the banks have had it all their way for a really long time and, and FinTech has helped them sort of see a lot more data, do a lots more stuff more quickly, you know, streamline a lot more processes. But where, where they haven't embraced that tech really terribly well is to improve their product suite. Like, they just have used it to get more efficiency out of their existing product suites. And so what we're seeing, uh, you know, prop techs like, like, like Avenue Bank, like, um, Downsizer, like, um, Co-opity coming up with new banking product or, you know, products that's, that are financial products that, um, are things that the banks sort of did really badly and made really difficult, but actually you guys are digitizing them and im- and improving them considerably and expanding their, their potential.
Lawrence Williamson: Um, look, uh, having been on the technology side of it, Australia in terms of where we are, um, in our banking industry and the adoption of, um, technology, we are, you know, market leading in... Or world leaders probably in that space. Um, I th- I was surprised to find that there was a product that there was still innovation to be done on it. Um-
Kylie Davis: Yeah, right. Okay.
Lawrence Williamson: ... which is really a credit to, to the founders because, um, it, uh, it has been done and yes, the, we do find plenty of even industries outside of, um, banking where, um, companies will start up as a sort of niche, but, um, it can be a niche in a very crowded market as well-
Kylie Davis: Mm-hmm
Lawrence Williamson: ... um, where there has already been a lot of that innovation. So it is more of a case of just trying to, um, take market share from the incumbent, whereas-
Kylie Davis: Yeah
Lawrence Williamson: ... ours is genuine innovation and solving a problem. Um, which finding those opportunities I, I think is getting harder and harder.
Kylie Davis: Right. Okay. Yeah. I'm just really interested that... And look, and I'm, you know, I, huge respect to the banking industry because, you know, in, in my l- in my career since I started as a ca- well, copy girl at the, at The Australian newspaper in the very late '80s, um, when we used to have, have to queue up at the bank and cash our bank checks each week, and then the ATMs came out and that was a, you know, like... And so then to phone banking and online banking and, you know, like w- we live in amazing times. And if you can, if you can digitize something as complicated as the banking industry safely, then it does hold huge hope out and demonstrate cap- capability for us all. But yeah, I'm seeing there's, there seems... What we've seen is all of the energy go into those, you know, mortgage proc- uh, mortgage processes and, um, and, and I guess their core business, which makes complete sense.
Lawrence Williamson: Mm-hmm.
Kylie Davis: Which means that there are these whole, there are other sec- other parts or other products that could be developed out there to, to change or increase customer usage which, um, which I'm really fascinated by with, with, with what you guys are doing.
Lawrence Williamson: No, definitely.
Kylie Davis: Yeah.
Lawrence Williamson: And, um, look, it's a, it, it is the nature of this product itself and, and that sort of complexity piece of it where we've heard of examples where, um, some banks are actually no longer offering it as a product, um, because of that complexity. And, um, n- not offering a product to, uh, a business relationship or business customer opens up a risk in terms of they are then, um, you know, uh, in a position where they have to go and apply, um, with a competitor and, uh, and, uh-
Kylie Davis: Mm
Lawrence Williamson: ... it's a risk to that, uh, that relationship. So I think, um, we've actually had a good response in terms of being a, um, niche product with a single focus, high speci- specialization and just being the best at it, um, actually draws in, um, some, uh, leads and, uh, customer inquiries from other banks, uh, as well.
Kylie Davis: Awesome. And so what do you see, Lawrence, what do you see is, is, are the, are the technologies or the behaviors that are gonna impact you, Avenue Bank, in the, the next five years?
Lawrence Williamson: Um, I don't know that there's anything that's necessarily going to impact us. I think at some point, um, we will see the, um, uptake of, um, a digital process in bank guarantees, but we're certainly really well positioned to lead in that space as we've, uh, had a great head start. And, um, we really have the goal to be the leading bank for bank guarantees in Australia.
Kylie Davis: Yeah, cool. And does that mean that's something that you can export overseas? Or, like, is this a capability that translates to other markets or is, is Australia in, is big as you're gonna get?
Lawrence Williamson: Look, it's a good question and, and one that comes up quite a bit. Um, bank guarantees from, um, our research are, are unique to Australia. Um-
Kylie Davis: Oh, okay. Yeah.
Lawrence Williamson: Yeah. So, um, so as much as we would, uh, love global domination, it's a, it's a very, uh, Australia focused, uh, opportunity.
Kylie Davis: It's like the AFL.
Lawrence Williamson: It is.
Kylie Davis: Okay. And so, um, what, so what does the future look like for Avenue Bank? Like, what, what, what's on your roadmap?
Lawrence Williamson: There's certainly, um, room for improvement and, uh, further innovation that we have plans for. Um, I think, uh, in terms of we are focused on building a strong foundation and, um, and then releasing other, other innovative products to the market. Uh, and it's more a case of, um, yeah, watch this space.
Kylie Davis: Awesome. All right. Well, look, Lawrence, thank you so much for your time today and telling us all about Avenue Bank. Congratulations again on your, um, PropTech Awards win. Um, I knew nothing about bank... I, I knew nothing about commercial property bank guarantees and, um, and so it's been really fascinating to learn all about them. Um, and congratulations and, and talk to you soon.
Lawrence Williamson: Thank you so much, Kylie. It's been great and, uh, thank you for having me.
Kylie Davis: So what do you think? I bet you never knew you needed to know so much about commercial property bank guarantees. Am I right? But I thoroughly enjoyed this interview because of the clarity that Lawrence and the team at Avenue Bank had about the problem they're solving for, and the value of solving that problem. Avenue Bank has created a digital product that is highly specific, but which traditional banks had completely ignored. And let's not forget, it's a big deal to get a banking license. There's a lot involved. And Lawrence and his team have slashed processing time from the traditional four to six weeks to Avenue Bank's ability to issue a guarantee in 24 hours, or even on the same day, both for applying for guarantees and for claiming on them. So brilliant job, Avenue Bank. I didn't know commercial property banking could be so fascinating, and truly, I really mean that. Now, just before we go, are you a fast-growing PropTech looking to take a new product to market, position yourself strongly through unique thought leadership and research, or are you struggling to wrangle all the strategic and tactical pieces of marketing so that they convert into real sales? Then I, Kylie Davis, and the PropTech Guru team would love to help. PropTech Guru, which is the consulting business I run with my husband, former Gartner director and media executive Mark Hollonds, specializes in a service called Scalable CMO. Most PropTechs have a marketing team in place, and many of them are just one or two young marketers struggling to do all the things. But with Scalable CMO, you get the perfect mix of top-level executive thinking, plus affordable and tactical executions to support, scale, and enhance your current team. To kick off, we audit your existing marketing with an overlay of where you need to get to, and we'll identify what's working and fit for purpose and what you need to do to hit your number. And then we create a strategic plan and the cost of delivery of the work required from digital marketing, CRM and automation management, content, media, social media, sales structure, KPIs, and all the accountabilities. Work is executed by our team in the Philippines to ensure it's affordable, and it's overseen by Mark and I here in Australia to deliver accuracy, reliability, and domain expertise. So our goal is to get you up and running, in market, and firing on all cylinders, and make ourselves ideally redundant in around 18 months, because we get it. No one wants to work forever with a consultant. You want marketing and positioning to get results, and we wanna show you how. So if this sounds like something that could work for your PropTech, reach out. Email me at kylie@proptechguru.com.au or connect up on LinkedIn. Now, if you have enjoyed this episode of the PropTech Podcast, I would love you to tell all your friends or drop me a line either via email or LinkedIn or on our Facebook page. And you can follow this podcast on Spotify, Google Podcasts, Anchor, and Apple iTunes, and anywhere good podcasts are heard. I would like to thank my podcast producer, the fabulous Charlie Hollonds, podcast website editors Jill Escudero and Shira Sexison, and our sponsors. HID, digital identification solutions for your building. Direct Connect, making moving easy. Dynamic Methods, the name behind Forms Live, REI Forms Live, and Realworks. Easy Pay, making collecting payments easy for PropTechs. And the PropTech Association Australia, Australia's industry body which is supporting the flourishing PropTech community. Now, if you're an Australian or New Zealand PropTech who would like to be on the show, please drop me a line via LinkedIn or email kylie@proptechassociation.com.au. Thanks so much, everyone. Until next time, keep on PropTeching.
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